Irish Props

Think this deserves it's own topic with all the stuff written about prop's here over the years and the criticism that everyone from the IRFU to the provinces down to the schools have received over Ireland not having a conveyer belt of props being popped out year after year.

So has this happened before and did anything happen to remedy it and if so what was that remedy?

I think the answer is yes. If most people remember there only a few years back Ireland was bereft of out-halves with the Island only having Ronan O'Gara and an aging David Humphries who retired shortly after. There was huge worry that a county that used to produce out-halves coming out of it's ears was suddenly running very short of International level ones. With this in mind the IRFU and the provinces either intentionally or unintentionally produced a system to remedy this problem.
Firstly a short-term solution they brought in International class Out-halves to keep the provinces competitive like David Holwell at Leinster.
Secondly the medium-term solution they brought in younger guys who had potential to become international class out-halves like Jeremy Manning at Munster and some other lad whose name I forget.
An the long-term solution they invested in coaching and made out-half a priority at youth level which was brought us the likes of Jonathan Sexton, Ian Madigan and Paddy Jackson today.

So have they done something similar at prop level?

The short-term solution to keep the provinces competitive? Yes, Stan Wright formerly of Leinster and the likes of BJ Botha and John Afoa confirm this.

The medium term solution of if you have none on the horizon import some is also there ala Nathan White and Rodney Ah You at Connacht and the defunct Peter Borlase at Munster.

So what about the long-term solution? The answer would also be yes. Moore and Furlong at Leinster and Macklin at Ulster suggest that we are finally beginning to see a return for an investment in propping. Unfortunately with props it takes longer for them to mature means we will be in a transitional stage longer than any of us would like but it also shows that there is hope at the end of the rainbow.

Thoughts?

you could expand title to ask the question if the acadamies are supplying irish rugby with the resources that it needs to be successful.
If you take leinster for example, and i use them because they are widely regarded as having the biggest and most successful acadamy of the 4, and examine their first team and most likely back ups it tells a story.
1. healy(theirs and asuccess story), van der meuwe(saffer)
2, strauss(saffer), Cronin(munster acadamy + connacht)
3, Ross(munster acadamy and Quins), bent(kiwi)
4. Cullen( theirs and tigers), Denton(engish afaik, browne(connacht acadamy + france)
5. Roux(saffer), Toner(theirs).
6, 7, 8 all theirs afaik.
9. Reddin( munster acadamy and wasps), Boss( kiwi and ulster)
10-15 mainly theirs but have goodman, nacewa and now gopperth.

You could do something similar at munster with props and backs and ulster with a lot of positions too. Connacht ditto but acadamy pretty new here in its current structure afaik.
It shows that there are definite deficiencies in the system.

In terms of Props we have Healy top dog at LH with Killer and Court decent reserves. Wilkinson is probably next in line and Buckley. The back ups at Munster and leinster are both saffers. Mcallister is at ulster but very injury prone. IMo the only difference to the TH situation is the gap between 1st choice and the rest is wider at TH.
At Th we have ross all alone at no1 and then we have Archer, Bent, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Hagan, Andress etc all way behind competing for 2nd.
One thing we have learned in the last 4 yrs is that Th props must play regularly if they are to stay at top of their game come scrum time. Ross struggles when he comes back from camp, Bull was similar, Hagan has gone back a lot since he left connacht. He was aparantly going very well when he played every week. Loughney has now gone back a bit. when he was first choice and playing from start he made the irish team. Archer, while a long way to go, has seen more starts this season and has improved as a result. Having 3 provinces with niq starters at TH isnt helping.
The solution of course wouldnt be popular. No Niq props allowed. We would then have 8 LH and TH props playing regularly to choose from. Would you agree with that?

I believe that the Irish scrum coach/technician/guru? position advertised last year was never filled and the man that the IRFU had intended to bring in is now doing that job at Scotland, and I think the results are already fairly evident. Not saying its all down to coaching....but maybe its mainly down to coaching?? That of course would not increase the number of potential international level props by itself.

Rossie wrote:

The solution of course wouldn't be popular. No Niq props allowed. We would then have 8 LH and TH props playing regularly to choose from. Would you agree with that?

This was the main reasoning behind the IRFU doing it's rules saying that you can't have NIQ's playing the same positions before they went and made allowances to Muller at Ulster and Nacaewa at Leinster. That said they made Hines and Warwick leave as they refused to allow them a contract of more than one year so it has being implemented. This is the first year that props contracts are up and it's interesting to see the horse trading going on. Van der Merwe is going at Leinster which will mean a promotion for Jack McGrath at Leinster and Munster are doing everything in there power to keep Botha. Personally I think a ban on NIQ props would have being best rather than this stupid system which would put a bigger emphasis on producing our own while giving some leeway to hire potential IQ's to shore up gaps.

Phatguerilla wrote:

I believe that the Irish scrum coach/technician/guru? position advertised last year was never filled and the man that the IRFU had intended to bring in is now doing that job at Scotland, and I think the results are already fairly evident. Not saying its all down to coaching....but maybe its mainly down to coaching?? That of course would not increase the number of potential international level props by itself.

Your correct as far as I know and I'm pretty sure that the only province to have a dedicated scrum coach is Leinster. Munster had one but I don't think the position is filled at the moment. It wouldn't cost that much to have hire the like of Reggie Corrigan to go around and start giving scrum lessons to say the U18's to the U20's even if he covered just the youth teams. New Zealand have a dedicated scrummaging school as well as helpful websites like this one

www.coachingtoolbox.co.nz/rugbysmart/scrummaging/

How hard would it to do a website or even set up a school or centre of excellence which was staffed and equipped by dedicated rugby personnel who could take teams and show them the correct way? There's plenty of schools in Leinster that would avail of the facilities as well as AIL teams and they run 7's or school camps/blitz's to cover overheads.

But they have broken that rule already by allowing Gopperth sign for Leinster. Afterall is Parks IQ? LOL.
The hines, nacewa and now botha rule was/is actually a policy of irfu not to give NIQs over 30 any more than 1 yr contract extentions. Afaik this was also broken to accomadate Nacewa at Leinster.

Connacht isn't part of the succession plan

As far as I know they have shelved it quietly but that was the thinking behind it. Like I said a ban on props would be good but with Leinster now linked to a new LH prop at Biarritz I can't see it come in anytime soon.

Ricky Lutton had another good performance today against the Dragons. Allegedly the reason why he started the game instead of the fit Declan Fitzpatrick is Ulster are actively trying to find a replacement prop who isn't Declan Fitzpatrick that isn't because of his attitude or anything but that he is so injury prone. Lutton is apparently being given every opportunity to show that he can step up and if so he'll be considered the 2nd choice TH next season with Fitzpatrick going to 3rd choice. Doesn't say alot that Ireland's 2nd choice prop is being actively demoted! It could affect his contract talks as well

Hopefully Lutton is the real deal, if he keeps going the way he is I can see him making the international development team that's going to Georgia this summer or maybe even picking up his first cap in North America.

I was going through the thread ''ex players in the news'' checking if anyone moved during the summer etc.

came across that earlier on in the year BARRY fa'amausili, signed on for Montpellier HR for 2 more years after a good season, including Heineken cup games. he's not in the squad for this weekends game tho.

he was only 21 when he was here, never got much of a chance, he'd be IQ now! must be doing something right in france.

what kills me is he left in the summer 2010, october 2010 Rodney ah you came in and he'll be IQ next month!!! Rodney will never play for Ireland.

What if, we'll never know!

As they say hindsight is 20/20, but certainly the faith management has put into Ah You over the past couple of years has been mystifying to say the least.

Royce Burke-Flynn is back playing in the AIL. Could be useful as a medical joker for us if White/Loughney are out for much longer.