Does latest Italian result justify HC inclusion?

So was just wondering what everyone else thinks on this or is it too early to be drawing any meaningful conclusions from the weekend???

A lot of people (really I am only thinking about Brian Moore here) going on about how brilliant the Italian victory was, were also spouting last September that Italian involvement in the HC should be limited because it is unfair on the larger budget teams in England and France who miss out as a consequence.

In other words do you think the Italian victory justifies and furthermore demands them having two teams in the HC or whatever format we move forward with?

i think that regardless of the result yesterday, which was brilliant, they are entitled to representation in the heineken as they are partners in the Erc. From what im hearing from the rumour mill close to erc hq is that there is agreement on 8 pro12 teams and 1 rep from each union going forward. what needs to be sorted is no of teams(20 v 24) seedng, money and amlin. those will take time as AP are a long way away from middle ground atm.

Rossie

Agree they are entitled, but 1 or 2 is the question. 19 of the Italy team are with BT, 6 with Zebre and the others in France or England.

If you choose ERC option, current standing in the Pro 12 would put 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian into HC. I assume they would also be suggesting 7 from Prem and 7 from Super 14 with winners of HC and Amlin going in as well.

If it is more teams and more money they are looking for, why not just up the 1st stage to 8 pools of 4 with only winners going into QF.

Suggestion (not that anyone will want to hear it) 10 teams from Pro 12, Eng Prem and Sup 14 with winners of HC and Amlin getting in as well. Same number of games for each teams in Pool stage. No one playing for best "runner up"

i dont think any nation under the new agreement(assuming there will be one) will be guarenteed more than one team in the Hec. they will be guarenteed 1 though which is important.
I dont know if there is any truth to what im being told but the source is very reliable when it comes to Hec fixtures and dates a few days before they are officially released.
The split will most likely be 6/6/8 or 8/8/8 depending on which format wins out. The amlin and hec champs will be guarenteed a spot in hec at expense of lowest qualifying team where necessary without compromising the 1 team per nation rule.
The english apparantly really want the Amlin to be bulked up quality wise and if they get the 20 team format that they want that will mean an 8/6/4 split plus 2 qualifiers from a tier 3 competition. The italians will most likely want 1 of those positions for their domestic lge winners.

the french apparently are very blaze about the whole thing.

The elephant in the room is the APs tv deal with BT but the current impasse is the 20 v 24 format and seedings for future competitions. The AP want it based on domestic league qualifying position. The Erc want it to remain the way it is.
those are solvable problems. The BT/finance issues might prove more difficult to overcome.

Your suggestion or similar has bee put forward(32 team) by pro12/erc and rejected. it will remain a 24 team comp with a 16 team amlin or go to 2 20 team competitions. i prefer the 1st option but think it may be the 2nd.

I wouldn't tinker with the HC format as it is now in terms of 6 groups of 4. The final weekend of the group stages is magnificent drama with almost every match meaning something. The last thing the competition needs is dozens of meaningless games as there is in the Challenge Cup.

For what its worth I'd go 8 from Rabo and 7 from the other two with another spot for the Heineken Cup and Challenge Cup winners or their league. I'd like to see the Rabo based on merit but 3,3,1,1 is probably the best compromise and leave the other spot available for the best of the weakest teams in the 4 nations so for example if Leinster won the Amlin they'd get a spot for the HC which would go to us if we were ahead of one Scottish side, one Welsh side and one Italian side. Alternatively I'd like to see some kind of ranking system based on a league's performance like the Uefa Coefficient in soccer that would determine maybe one HC place that would go to the highest ranked league over a season.

I think the biggest challenge for the ERC is making the Challenge Cup a competition that teams take seriously especially in the opening rounds where an early defeat can end your campaign and there is some ridiculous mismatches, there is the odd shock but at 20 there is far too many teams starting out in the Challenge Cup. I'd rather they make it a strong 16 with top team going through in each group and 2 best runners up, just 2 dropping down from the Heineken Cup and guaranteed home semi-finals for the top 2 ranking Amlin sides if they come through their quarters.

Also create a shield competition to develop the weaker sides or those with a poor European reputation.

reducing the number of teams competing at european level from the current 44 to 40 will go a long way to making the Amlin more competitive.
practically everything you have suggested there is on the table in some form or other. The 20 team format would be 5 grps of 4. with 3 runners up making it to qtrs. the other 2 runners up woulld join the 5 amlin grp winners and 1 amlin grp runnerup in the amlin qtrs. thats the proposal anyway.
The proposal also includes a tier 3 comp between spanish, romanian, russian, georgian and italian champs with top 2 qualifying for Amlin following season.

The proposal also includes a tier 3 comp between spanish, romanian, russian, georgian and italian champs with top 2 qualifying for Amlin following season.

This I like and further more I would watch it. Belgium and Portugal are also in the next league down would be nice if they got included in some way.

For me, I was more thinking along the lines that the Italian result reinforced my personal opinion that the Rabo is a multi-national league and the qualification places for HC should never be merited in the same way the national leagues of France and England are.

On one hand you could argue the benefit of having two Italian teams in the premier European competition has allowed the national team to make the progress it has to date. On the other hand you could say I am overemphasizing the point from one game and the Scots seem to be doing their best to show there is no benefit to the national team from HC rugby!!!

unfortunately the french and english unions have surrendered their erc rights to their leagues which is why the heineken in its current form is under threat. in theory you are correct about union representation but in practise we are being brought down soccer lines of qyalification. the upshot hopefully will be a better pro 12.

The 2013/14 Aviva Premiership Rugby season kicked off this weekend with our clubs having no clear view of new European competitions from next season onwards.

The current European Rugby Cup (ERC) competitions terminate at the end of this season after notice was served by the English and French clubs in June 2012.
Despite numerous meetings between the stakeholders over the last year, the last of which was in May, discussions have been unsuccessful and the clubs can only conclude that negotiations on any new European agreement have now ended.
The English and French clubs have proposed the formation of two new, stronger competitions of 20 teams each, based on the principles of qualification on merit from each league, the inclusion of teams from all six existing countries and the expansion into new markets. These proposals could form the basis of future competitions.
However, given the importance and urgency of the current position, and the reconfirmation that the French clubs will not participate in any competition unless it includes the English clubs, the clubs have now asked Premiership Rugby to take immediate action to put in place a competition for 2014/15 to include the French and English clubs but which will also be open to teams from other countries.

Celts and Italians should look toward Argentina and South Africa to counter-attack...

I've seen this but as usual I cannot find any supporting statement from lnr. Perhaps you could assist Connachta but it looks like prl flying solo again and hoping lnr will respond positively. Mr lux of ffr and chairman of etc doesn't share this view and the only statement we have from lnr president stated a desire to stay in and concern over the prls BT deal which no one has seen.
All this currently means is the English are out and I don't think they had any choice. They signed a TV deal that they couldn't deliver so where had they to go?
We will wait and see what the French say but the elephant in the room that was the BT deal is now gone so compromise is now achievable. Top 8 from each leg with each union guaranteed a spot has the makings of a decent tournament. It allows the prl to enter with 8 also at later date.

Unfortunately, this time, It's an official LNR statement..
That's why I told about southern alternatives

Thks Connachta , I see from the erc site that the meeting of the stakeholders is tomorrow in Dublin. I wonder will the PRL and LNR attend?
Its an attempt by business men to take over the game and I fear for the future of rugby union and the 6n longterm. The French and English clubs are following the soccer model and that's not sustainable in rugby IMO.
The FFR and RFU need to think long and hard about this. The 6n is their bank roll and this threatens that.

The English and French want the UEFA solution.

20 years ago the soccer clubs of Spain, Italy, Germany & England complained that they provided >80% of the TV revenue but only got the same as every country in Europe - one team in the European Cup and might be knocked out "too soon"(!)

Eventually UEFA changed it - so you now get up to 4 teams each from the "big boys" and feck all from the minnows in the Champions League.

I do think the ERC needs a revamp - Zebre playing in the Heineken Cup within two months of the inaugural match is just plain daft. I also think the Celts on the ERC aren't taking these "big boy's" demands too seriously - there's a bit of "they need us more than we etc..........

Ireland have the most to lose. The Welsh, Scots and the Italians are mostly amalgamated teams with little history, rarely get out of their pools, and don't have too many sell-outs.

The IRFU need to keep their eye on the ball - and help force a compromise that keeps Le Rosbif and Frogs Legs on the menu.